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  • #16
    Zubin jaan, answer this question so I can give u my point of view accordingly.

    Assuming that you can make a good Man better...Can you make a bad Man good????

    TIA
    I would be true, for there are those who trust me;
    I would be pure, for there are those who care;
    I would be strong, for there is much to suffer;
    I would be brave, for there is much to dare.
    I would be friend of all—the foe—the friendless;
    I would be giving and forget the gift;
    I would be humble, for I know my weakness;
    I would look up and laugh—and love—and lift.
    Howard Walter
    http://www.farsinet.com/poetry/images/poemvatn.gif

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Dokhtar Bandari View Post
      Zubin jaan, answer this question so I can give u my point of view accordingly.

      Assuming that you can make a good Man better...Can you make a bad Man good????

      TIA
      its been proven unequivocally scientifically, though many choose not to see it because of their personal obligations. this topic requires neutrality that most don't have (including yourself, and I know the people who voted yes personally, they all having political obligations to revenge past wrongs, making them biased).

      first, you can make the worst man good right away. second, the bad man is bad because of certain things others are privileged to have (not necessarily money, and "good parenting" requires careful definition), and its no fault of his own, therefore doesn't deserve to die at all. its a crime to kill him.

      the first is proven through changes the circumstances around him/her. the second is proven though observing the conditions required to make one a healthy good person, observing that killers and immoral people did not have those things in their life and to the extent of healthy people. its observation, fact, and proof.

      in general, it is also proven that human beings are open to bias when they have a personal stake. they are prone to make someone evil because of what they have done, or the danger they pose. its an evolutionary adaptation for self-defense that does not apply in the modern world where we have more intelligent alternatives that will in fact produce prosperity for everyone.
      Last edited by zubin; 01-04-2008, 04:04 PM.
      Take him and cut him out in little stars,
      and he will make the face of heaven so fine,
      that all the world will be in love with night,
      and pay no worship to the garish sun

      - Shakespeare

      "In all intellectual debates, both sides tend to be correct in what they affirm, and wrong in what they deny." - JS Mill

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by mike435 View Post
        look for a class of mine had to sit in the court room
        i sat their and saw the joy this family got when they convicted the person of the crime.
        I personaly think the guy who got convicted was innocent
        but for the familt it didnt really matter that much it was more the act that he got what he deserved

        i think it is a selfish gratification seeing somone pay for killing someone else.
        what someone thinks clearly doesn't make an action right! principles and morals make things right...

        Originally posted by mike

        see this os where i have problem you are telling me that Hitler being a killer is weak and thats why he should not get the death penealty
        or all these other terrorist who kill kids and and innocent womman
        Hitler and even germany on the whole were very weak morally Mike. They had a hard time breaking out of their conditions and look at things from a moral standpoint. That's the weakness that people have of no fault of their own. it can be prevented through the appropriate environmental conditions. The fact that it can be prevented shows that they are innocent. It doesn't mean they should take responsibility for their crimes. They're just not evil Mike.

        The fact that you, me or ANYONE could have ended up as serial killers due to particular experiences proves the point. If someone turns into a killer due to the luck of their circumstances that makes them a killer, they are not INTRINSICALLY evil. the conditions that make a killer are evil.


        In general, if your arguments are a thousand times weaker than mine like you admit, then you should not hold your belief. I don't have to prove I'm right. I just have to prove you're wrong. Because death penalty advocates advocate the taking of a whole human life, essentially playing God it is their responsibility to show that this is justified. If their arguments are disproven, that's all that matters to settle the debate. If you need alternatives, they are already proven by science. At least now we have the means to make alternatives work for the betterment of everyone.
        Take him and cut him out in little stars,
        and he will make the face of heaven so fine,
        that all the world will be in love with night,
        and pay no worship to the garish sun

        - Shakespeare

        "In all intellectual debates, both sides tend to be correct in what they affirm, and wrong in what they deny." - JS Mill

        Comment


        • #19
          this whole thing boiled down to justice

          and frankly even though people want justice they are to lazy to achive it
          and the death penalty is just that
          people can care less about justice they just want someone to pay for it"
          anyone as long as they pay for it

          see if human beings were willing to seek justice they would look into theme selfs and essentially their wouldn't be a death penalty you would see were you went wrong and as you said it jubin you would correct and strengthens that weak moral stand, but people don't becuase it is much easier to just put someone to death rather than finding the problem of why they got were they are

          see everygroup has a problem
          and it is much easier to blame the one that does truely seek justice, becuase those who do truely seek justice look inwared and try to repair themeself both individualy and socialy

          and this senario is repeated over and over again

          Germany and the jews
          irans akhoonds and reformist
          Americas civil rights movements
          black america and rest of american dream
          http://www.worldometers.info/

          G-d determines who walks into your life....It is up to you to decide who you let walk away, who you let stay, and who you refuse to let go.

          http://www.nomullas.com/

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Dokhtar Bandari View Post
            Zubin jaan, answer this question so I can give u my point of view accordingly.

            Assuming that you can make a good Man better...Can you make a bad Man good????

            TIA

            dokhtar bandary you all people

            what kined of a question is this
            offcourse a bad man can become good
            http://www.worldometers.info/

            G-d determines who walks into your life....It is up to you to decide who you let walk away, who you let stay, and who you refuse to let go.

            http://www.nomullas.com/

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by mike435 View Post
              this whole thing boiled down to justice

              and frankly even though people want justice they are to lazy to achive it
              and the death penalty is just that
              people can care less about justice they just want someone to pay for it"
              anyone as long as they pay for it

              see if human beings were willing to seek justice they would look into theme selfs and essentially their wouldn't be a death penalty you would see were you went wrong and as you said it jubin you would correct and strengthens that weak moral stand, but people don't becuase it is much easier to just put someone to death rather than finding the problem of why they got were they are

              see everygroup has a problem
              and it is much easier to blame the one that does truely seek justice, becuase those who do truely seek justice look inwared and try to repair themeself both individualy and socialy

              and this senario is repeated over and over again

              Germany and the jews
              irans akhoonds and reformist
              Americas civil rights movements
              black america and rest of american dream
              first of all, your argument supports that the death penalty is wrong, but you are saying that people in all practicality will support it to point the finger. but that's an issue of psychology, and you haven't surveyed people to see what avenues they would potentially accept. Also, generations are different now from before. In general, psychology also supports the notion that people want true justice, rehabilitation of the killer, social prosperity, and safety as opposed to the death penalty, because the dp prevents these things. so that argument is also weak.
              Take him and cut him out in little stars,
              and he will make the face of heaven so fine,
              that all the world will be in love with night,
              and pay no worship to the garish sun

              - Shakespeare

              "In all intellectual debates, both sides tend to be correct in what they affirm, and wrong in what they deny." - JS Mill

              Comment


              • #22
                LOL...you both ***-U-ME too much.

                First of all Zubin, I did not vote yes or no and I am yet to reveal my position on the subject...I merely asked a question to explore the right answer because I am not ***-U-Ming that I know what you know. And I can not tell whether you are being idealist or realist when posing a question. Had your question being offered with some hard evidence and/or facts I would have come out and straight away tell you what I think.

                Mike, it was a question not a statement. It is in my nature to ask questions before I make a conclusion or form an answer.
                I would be true, for there are those who trust me;
                I would be pure, for there are those who care;
                I would be strong, for there is much to suffer;
                I would be brave, for there is much to dare.
                I would be friend of all—the foe—the friendless;
                I would be giving and forget the gift;
                I would be humble, for I know my weakness;
                I would look up and laugh—and love—and lift.
                Howard Walter
                http://www.farsinet.com/poetry/images/poemvatn.gif

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dokhtar Bandari View Post
                  LOL...you both ***-U-ME too much.

                  First of all Zubin, I did not vote yes or no and I am yet to reveal my position on the subject...I merely asked a question to explore the right answer because I am not ***-U-Ming that I know what you know. And I can not tell whether you are being idealist or realist when posing a question. Had your question being offered with some hard evidence and/or facts I would have come out and straight away tell you what I think.
                  I didn't assume you had a position, though I take your not voting no as a hesitation. I told you the basis. If you want proof of the basis because you are unconvinced from a common sense perspective, then I can take the time and effort to bring some "hard" evidence. Hard evidence is itself an art to interpret, and relative to your framework. you have to have the right framework before looking at hard evidence. I can show you hard evidence that my framework is right, however, as this would be a justified request.

                  my framework, based on hard evidence, logic and common sense, is that any person has the ability to change for the better and acquire positive characteristics that others have. genes are completely irrelevant when discussing human psychological traits because social conditions have proven themselves to be sufficient in determining a person's psychology regardless of genetic "predisposition". do you really want proof of that? why?
                  Take him and cut him out in little stars,
                  and he will make the face of heaven so fine,
                  that all the world will be in love with night,
                  and pay no worship to the garish sun

                  - Shakespeare

                  "In all intellectual debates, both sides tend to be correct in what they affirm, and wrong in what they deny." - JS Mill

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    All right I will bite...

                    So do you want to change people (make bad person good..so on) or do you want to make it so as they have a free choice to make the change???

                    Please note I am yet to give you my position on the core question of whether I am for death penalty or not.
                    I would be true, for there are those who trust me;
                    I would be pure, for there are those who care;
                    I would be strong, for there is much to suffer;
                    I would be brave, for there is much to dare.
                    I would be friend of all—the foe—the friendless;
                    I would be giving and forget the gift;
                    I would be humble, for I know my weakness;
                    I would look up and laugh—and love—and lift.
                    Howard Walter
                    http://www.farsinet.com/poetry/images/poemvatn.gif

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dokhtar Bandari View Post
                      All right I will bite...

                      So do you want to change people (make bad person good..so on) or do you want to make it so as they have a free choice to make the change???
                      people only truly change through free choice. its about setting up the conditions, based on their psychology, so that they can make that choice. the point is that there are tens of social-environmental conditions and that these conditions have an extremely strong influence on behavior.
                      Take him and cut him out in little stars,
                      and he will make the face of heaven so fine,
                      that all the world will be in love with night,
                      and pay no worship to the garish sun

                      - Shakespeare

                      "In all intellectual debates, both sides tend to be correct in what they affirm, and wrong in what they deny." - JS Mill

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by zubin View Post
                        people only truly change through free choice. its about setting up the conditions, based on their psychology, so that they can make that choice. the point is that there are tens of social-environmental conditions and that these conditions have an extremely strong influence on behavior.

                        Hmmmm...ok!!!!!!!! So Lizzy had an ax and a free choice...but if she had a different environment of existence and an ax and a free choice..it would have been different???? Aummmm and her parents? did they choose to live or die????
                        I would be true, for there are those who trust me;
                        I would be pure, for there are those who care;
                        I would be strong, for there is much to suffer;
                        I would be brave, for there is much to dare.
                        I would be friend of all—the foe—the friendless;
                        I would be giving and forget the gift;
                        I would be humble, for I know my weakness;
                        I would look up and laugh—and love—and lift.
                        Howard Walter
                        http://www.farsinet.com/poetry/images/poemvatn.gif

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Dokhtar Bandari View Post
                          Hmmmm...ok!!!!!!!! So Lizzy had an ax and a free choice...but if she had a different environment of existence and an ax and a free choice..it would have been different???? Aummmm and her parents? did they choose to live or die????
                          I don't understand what you're saying. ofcourse if she had a different environment she would have made a different decision. one of the environmental factors that prevents these types of decision is a supportive peer. she likely does not have a supportive peer.

                          in the worse case scenario, psychopaths or 'anti-socials', they feel less remorse and guilt than everyone else when they commit a crime, and so are more prone to doing cruel things. if lizzy has not conscience at the moment, she can still develop one. even such people have been rehabilitated before, and even they could have been prevented from becoming that way if the cultural, social and environmental variables were different.

                          it will be hard for you to perceive, but even you could have turned out to be a murderer as opposed to the person that you currently are if your environment was different. it applies to everyone.
                          Take him and cut him out in little stars,
                          and he will make the face of heaven so fine,
                          that all the world will be in love with night,
                          and pay no worship to the garish sun

                          - Shakespeare

                          "In all intellectual debates, both sides tend to be correct in what they affirm, and wrong in what they deny." - JS Mill

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            When I was in Law School, we worked on the famous case Lizzie Bordon, and that is what I was referring too, because when it comes to Dead Penalty, invariably this case is sited. And the famous poem...


                            Lizzie Borden took an axe
                            And gave her mother forty whacks.
                            And when she saw what she had done,
                            She gave her father forty-one.
                            I would be true, for there are those who trust me;
                            I would be pure, for there are those who care;
                            I would be strong, for there is much to suffer;
                            I would be brave, for there is much to dare.
                            I would be friend of all—the foe—the friendless;
                            I would be giving and forget the gift;
                            I would be humble, for I know my weakness;
                            I would look up and laugh—and love—and lift.
                            Howard Walter
                            http://www.farsinet.com/poetry/images/poemvatn.gif

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Lizzie Bordon story

                              You can read the story here...note that even though she was found not guilty at that time...many speculations have been made since then...there are a lot of evidence that she committed the crime...had she been found guilty and sentenced to death penalty (typical of those days)..the mystery would be how do you make a person like that make a different choice?

                              http://www.prairieghosts.com/lizzie.html
                              I would be true, for there are those who trust me;
                              I would be pure, for there are those who care;
                              I would be strong, for there is much to suffer;
                              I would be brave, for there is much to dare.
                              I would be friend of all—the foe—the friendless;
                              I would be giving and forget the gift;
                              I would be humble, for I know my weakness;
                              I would look up and laugh—and love—and lift.
                              Howard Walter
                              http://www.farsinet.com/poetry/images/poemvatn.gif

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                lawyers seriously should not get involved in psychology. psychology is an issue of fact and science that lawyers won't understand due to obligations to their discipline. psychology is directly opposed to the current outdated notions that guide law, such as this. in general, academia and science are much farther ahead than society.

                                the quesiton is why has lizzy hit her dad after killing her mom. from a scientific psychological perspective these things aren't hard to answer. environmental variables easily influenced lizzy to (1) become who she has become, and (2) do what she has done. It is so elementary a fact it shouldn't really be disputed, but my job is to make such elementary facts clear.

                                Originally posted by Dokhtar Bandari View Post
                                When I was in Law School, we worked on the famous case Lizzie Bordon, and that is what I was referring too, because when it comes to Dead Penalty, invariably this case is sited. And the famous poem...


                                Lizzie Borden took an axe
                                And gave her mother forty whacks.
                                And when she saw what she had done,
                                She gave her father forty-one.
                                Take him and cut him out in little stars,
                                and he will make the face of heaven so fine,
                                that all the world will be in love with night,
                                and pay no worship to the garish sun

                                - Shakespeare

                                "In all intellectual debates, both sides tend to be correct in what they affirm, and wrong in what they deny." - JS Mill

                                Comment

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